New Race/Unit Discussion

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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Ministry on Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:00 pm

Any chance you could post your Xenomorphs codex here at the forum so that we may rip it apart offer our opinions? I'm rather curious as to what you did with the beasties.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby mudokon100 on Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:22 am

Eurgh... has tables...
lemme see...
____________________________________________
Army Special Rules
Adapted – All Xenomorphs can traverse any terrain, so treat impassable (including vertical) terrain as difficult terrain, although those with Monstrous Creature status count it as dangerous terrain. They are also effective hunters in any environment, so have Acute Senses, and non-Monstrous Creatures have Infiltrate.
Acid Blood – All Xenomorphs have highly acidic blood, which splashes over enemies should they be killed. To represent this, any Xenomorph killed in close combat inflicts a single hit on the enemy squad at S7 AP4. This ability does not affect other Xenomorphs.
Spit – Some Xenomorphs may spit acid. If they can, it is listed as an ability in their profile. Spit counts as a ranged weapon, AP 4, with strength equal to that of the Xenomorph using the ability. They type of attack (Assault/Rapid Fire/Template, etc) and/or range will be listed on the profile. This ability cannot be used on other Xenomorphs.

HQ

Queen – 100 points, 1 only.
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 0 8 7 4 5 4 10 3+/6+ Inv

Monstrous Creature
Will of the Hive – All Xenomorphs within 24” of the Queen may choose to pass or fail any test for Ld they are required to take. If the Queen dies, the Ld of all Xenomorphs in play is reduced to 1 (aka they automatically fail all morale checks), provided there is not an Empress remaining.
Headbite – If an Queen hits with 4 attacks, she may pick up a single enemy model and drive her inner jaws through its head, killing it outright. Models immune to instant death cannot be killed outright in this manner, although they still take an automatic wound. Invulnerable saves only may be taken.

Empress – 150 points, 1 only.
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
8 0 9 8 5 6 4 10 2+/5+ Inv

Monstrous Creature
Protective Frenzy – All Xenomorph Packs with the “Transbreed” ability gain +1 to WS, S and I while a model is within 6” of the Empress, and any wounds suffered by the Empress inflicted by ranged weapons may be transferred to any member of that Pack.
Imperative of the Hive – All Xenomorphs within 36” of the Empress may choose to pass or fail any test for Ld they are required to take. If the Empress dies, the Ld of all Xenomorphs in play is reduced to 1 (aka they automatically fail all morale checks), provided there is not a Queen remaining.
Empress Headbite – If an Empress hits with 4 attacks, she may pick up a single enemy model and drive her inner jaws through its head, killing it outright, no matter what protection it has. No saves of any kind can save a unit from the immense power behind an Empress’ jaws.


Elites

Praetorian Guard (1 Praetorian) – 70 Points each.
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
7 0 7 5 3 5 3 10 3+

Monstrous Creature
Metamorphosis – At the start of the Xenomorph movement phase, the Praetorian may enter a cocoon to become either a Carrier or a Ravager. The Praetorian may not move, shoot, run, or assault while it is in the cocoon. At the end of the Xenomorph turn, replace the Praetorian with either a Carrier or a Ravager. All wounds are restored.
Spit – Assault 1 Template
Guard – May be taken as a retinue unit for a Queen or Empress, and an Empress may have 2, still counting as one Elite choice. Retinue Praetorians may not use Metamorphosis.

Troops

Drone Pack (3-7 Drones) – 15 points each.
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
3 3 4 4 1 4 1 7 5+

Transbreed
Spit – Range 18”, Rapid Fire
Fleet
Stealth
Move through Cover

Warrior Pack (4-10 Warriors) – 11 points each.
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 0 4 4 1 5 2 8 5+

Transbreed
Host Traits – Depending on the host, Warriors may have significantly altered physiology. A host “species” MUST be chosen for each Pack, at the points cost indicated, and alters the statistics above.
Human (5 Pts) – S+1
Eldar (5 Pts) – I+1
Dark Eldar (6 Pts) – WS+1
Tyranid (7 Pts) – A+1
Ork (8 Pts) – S+1 T+1
Space Marine (9 Pts) – Sv+1 Ld+1
Chaos (9 pts) – W+1
Feel No Pain
Fleet
Counter-Attack
Fast Attack

Runner Pack (4-12 Runners) – 20 points each.
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 0 3 4 1 6 2 7 5+

Transbreed
Beasts
Hit and Run
Furious Charge
Combustion – Runners are notoriously explosive when subjected to heat. When killed by a Flamer or Melta weapon (either in name or type), they explode violently. If this happens, however, the wounded Runner(s) will leap 8” towards the nearest enemy before exploding as a S5 AP5 Blast. The remaining Runners stay in their original positions.

Facehuggers (10 Facehuggers, deployed individually) – 50 points.
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
1 0 1 2 1 4 1 10 -

Move through Cover
Stealth
Fearless
Fleet
Facehug – When a Facehugger assaults, roll a D6, and add it to the initiative of the Facehugger. The owner of the target squad then also rolls a D6 and adds it the initiative of any member of that squad. If the Facehuggers’ total is higher, then remove the Facehugger and a member of the target squad (owners choice) as casualties. If the targets’ total is higher, the combat continues as a normal assault, but the Facehugger may not attack. Provided the Facehugger survives, the rolls are taken again next assault phase. This ability does not work on monstrous creatures, Xenomorphs or Necrons.

Carrier (1 Carrier) – Metamorph from Praetorian.
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 5 5 3 4 2 10 4+

Carry – Any Facehugger that moves within 2” of a Carrier may use it as a transport, embarking and disembarking as if the Carrier were a vehicle.
Launch – A Carrier may “throw” an embarked Facehugger as a ranged weapon, up to 18”, causing it to automatically use the Facehug ability on the target. This ability is also used in close combat automatically – when the Carrier engages the enemy in close combat, all embarked Facehuggers will use their Facehug ability (or at least as many as necessary) on the enemy squad. Furthermore, should the Carrier be killed, embarked Facehuggers are launched 6” in any direction, individually, and can target enemy squads as if they were charging.



Heavy Support

Predalien Pack (2-6 Predaliens) – 30 points each.
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 0 6 5 2 3 2 9 4+

Transbreed
Debilitating Blows – Hits from a Predalien can send enemies reeling. As such, they ignore armour saves and successful hits on vehicles always cause a crew stunned result besides anything else.

Ravener (1 Ravener) – Metamorph from Praetorian.
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 0 10 9 5 2 2 10 2+ / 4+ Inv

Monstrous Creature
Slow and Purposeful
Fleet
Regenesis – Raveners automatically heal one wound at the start of each Xenomorph turn, to their maximum of 5. This applies even when they have 0 W left, so they must take another wound once “killed” before being removed from play.

_______________
Oh hey, it worked! Yeah... just noticed that raveners have the same name as the nids... meh. Couple of spacings needed to be put in but otherwise it all copied fine.
Don't be too mean ok? i was up till 6:30am doing this ^^ lol
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Zombiedragon201 on Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:34 am

Good motherfucking lord, the cost for these things is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY under-priced, and everything is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY OP. I'm pretty sure I'm going to hear an agreement from at least a few other people. God, christ, the Praetorians cost 70 pts each, and they've got three damn wounds with stats high enough to pretty much utterly maim a commander of any normal army? And jeesus, the RAVENER? 70 pts, 1 turn from the start of a match, and it's got fleet, MC status, a 2+ Armor save, FUCKING REGENERATES, WS6, which is admittedly not that bad, S10, T9, and W5? Good lord man, that shit pretty much tops the list for the most OP thing I've ever seen.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Zander on Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:11 pm

... Wow... Just wow.
OP is just not enough of an acronym for this.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Anakha on Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:39 pm

......................nough said.

No really, take it from someone who made many codizes: ONE NIGHT is FAR too less to even basically design a new race. Not to mention that Xenomorphs need more than a little Extrawork. Then test it a few times and adjust. THEN (at the earliest) post it here again....

Aside from the overall overpoweredness (which you should consider FACT by now) the costs for the Host Specias jumped my eye: you pay that for THE PACK?!
Aside from being overall OP (but WAAAAYY less than other choices) that lets you upgrade a whole squad with permanently +1S ant T for frickung 8 pts...
Dont even get me satarted ont he negative (YES, more than just missing) Logic of some special rules....

Gah, have to stop now, and cool down....
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby mudokon100 on Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:53 pm

ALL OF YOU CALM THE FSCK DOWN! Jeez, in no way did I say this was the final thing! I only posted it because i was asked, I would rather have worked on it more before making it publically available. It was somewhat rushed, and you said yourself zombie that points need lowering.
But anyway, to explain a couple of things i'm changing (partly because of input here, others because i was tired and frankly did it wrong), and explain, etc:
Raveners aren't called raveners. They're ravagers. That was just a silly mistake on my behalf.
Lower Ravager wounds to 4, T to 8, and their inv save to 5+.
Increase praetorian cost.
Maybe put a limit on what can be facehugged (as in, anything with an armour save of 3+ or better), will test first.
Ana, for oyur two points: The cost is per model. Maybe I didn't make that clear... my bad. And I'm guessing it's the huggers you have the "logic" problem with, but tbh how complex would it make the game if I put "can't be used on stuff with helmets". Oh, and I think I need to add that it's for vehicles either... but anyway, if it's something else, please point it out. Constructive criticism is what's needed, not rants, please.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Anakha on Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:13 pm

OK, constructive criticism coming.

Start all over. No really, its easier than to tell you all the things you did terribly wrong....
Fisrt and foremost: YOua re designing a Codex for 40k. ALL Races of 40k have fluffwise reasons for TONS of special rules, but they dont get put in because its too much hassle. When you go to do it again, do it like that:
1. What shall your race play overall?
2. What are the "possible" amounts of Special rules that DONT FRAKKING kill the whole point of doing it 40k (believe me, I know what I`m talking about, I`m doing a conversion of a "Überrace" to 40k right now and you simply HAVE to reduce the power the fluff tells you they have!) and cant they be done with existing ones?
3. Write down your ideas for Special Abilities, with remarks on WHAT THEY SHOULD DO/FEEL, but without actual rules!
4. Draft the first version of your Units, without any Specials yet, and try to price them accordingly to similar, allready existing 40k Units.
5. Add the special abilities in their Alpha form
6-20: Test/show/Ask people!!!!
21: Refit whats "out of stile" for 40k (and cant be adapted).
22: Test!!
23: post it her again.......


PS:
@ Facehuggers if you INSIST on using them (I cant see the logic, unless you want an "Armylist" that simply consist of all "official" Xenomorphs) make their ability NOT work on an Armor of 4+ or better, because starting there its usually a "closed" one.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Ministry on Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:43 pm

Sorry Mudo, I did not intend to put you on the firing line like that. Thanks for posting your list.

Indeed it is way OP. As a general rule of thumb, when writing new lists try and make them a little under powered and over priced, and then after a few tests you can buff them where they are needed. Also, try to compare what you know about the race (aliens are nice as they have a lot of movies, comics and other fiction to back them up), to the existing races in the game. For example, would a drone be as strong as a space marine in power armor? Or as tough? I think the answer is no, so their S and T should be 3 instead of 4.

But I can understand the challenge of making this race a competitive opponent on the tabletop, and I think you have provided for a lot of the tactical holes that this race has on a large scale battlefield.

Off the top of my head, the things that struck me as most OP is the automatic S7 AP4 hit from Acid Blood. This would be almost automatic death for anything less than space marines. In the movie aliens, this effect doesn't kill anyone that I can recall, and only really hurt the guy on the exposed skin. Therefor I would change it to Sx AP6 (or AP-) (where x is the same as the creature's strength). This way, the size of the creature directly relates to the amount of acid that gets splashed on the squad, and it is not guaranteed to burn all the way through anything but the lightest armor.

And the Queen is not that bad-ass ;) . A single warrior without heavy weapons would have a hard time facing it, but in all realism (or.. fictional-realism?) it would get pwnd by a squad of space marines with a heavy bolter. I say, keep it kind of cheap (as it is now), but some large stat-cuts are due across the board. WS6, BS0, S5-6, T5-6, W3, I5-6, A2-3, Ld10, Sv4+ (no inv save). The headbite should be treated more like the nids implant attack, and the whole Synapse/Will of the Hive special ability looks really good.

The facehugger looks pretty good. Rather than helmets vs no helmets, I would just allow for an armor save. The rest of it's special rule looks fine.

The rest of the units I'm not familiar with, but they look OP in general. This is definately a swarm army, so aim for weaker and more numerous units.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Krishach on Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:19 am

I know you guys may die of shock for me defending Mudo, [i]"I'll pause for a moment so you can but, the makeup is solid, the lineup is thought out in terms of tactical purpose, and with only a few redundancies. The special abilities are overdone, and need to be severely downsized, or have the pt cost go way up.

This mod was also overpowered, very, when it was released, and it got worse before it got better. Just a reminder. Its easy to make something strong when you enjoy and champion it, and its much harder to come in under the mark than over.

As a point of reference for anyone making their own: 'tis better to be UNDERpowered than overpowered (words from the mod team). Anyone can win with an OP army that people hate, but someone who wins with an under-powered custom army will always be known as a deadly motherf*$ker on the table.

For Mudo: I'd also rethink everything's tactical purpose and refine them to a specific job. I realize your making the Aliens motiff, but I'd err on strategy balanced rather than fanfic if I were you. Looking at the lineup now, I know I would ignore some of those units in favor of others every time.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby mudokon100 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:06 pm

Well thankyou for some positive feedback. Provided my xbox live doesnt come tonight, i'll do some work on them.
kris, which units would you ignore? and why?
and ministry i think you hit the mark with acid blood. why didn't think of that? lol.
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