New Race/Unit Discussion

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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Krishach on Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:07 pm

I would actually make it related to toughness instead of strength, or even wounds, as that reflects size more than strength.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Ministry on Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:47 pm

That was my first instinct (it's much more logical). However I was going off of the good general rule for writing lists in an established rules system, "Try to copy existing rules, abilities, and units.". In this case, the Tyranids strength X ranged weapons. Any time you use a rule that already exists, most of the hard balancing work has already been done for you. All you would have to do is work out the points value involved.

So ultimately it's up to you Mudo. I think using Strength would be less work to balance, but Toughness or Wounds would be more realistic, unique and possibly more rewarding.

I wrote an Eldar Exodite list once. I pulled everything from existing units (dark eldar units and the Chapter Approved: Tyranid Monstrous Creature generator). Any time the existing unit had abilities that didn't match well, I would remove it without reducing the price. In the end, I felt that the list was underpowered, but still competitive. I'de post it up on here, except that I wrote it like 7-8 years ago on paper and wouldn't even know where to start looking for it. Perhaps if I ever find it... But the point is, sampleing other well-established units and abilities is always a lot easier than creating brand new ones.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby mudokon100 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:02 pm

Alright then... a bit of a changelog here, as i'm making them. and i'll put some reasoning behind it to reduce questions :)

Made acid blood SX as suggested, according to toughness, but still gave it AP5. Remember that movies work via deus ex machina, in RL (or simulated ^^), the acid would go everywhere, including on the opponents faces. Lightly armoured units would be at serious risk.
Increased queen to 110 points, will have to see if that's enough.
Queens attacks reduced to 3, and headbite to match, as suggested. S to 7.
Queen normal save reduced to 4+, Empress to 3+. Kept Inv as they are big beasties after all, and have insane healing abilities.
Made Imperative of the Hive give the empress immunity to most psychic powers (those that require tests to use), to make up for the entire races lack of psykers.
Praetorians increased to 90pts, given their stats.
Praetorians cannot use metamorphosis to become a Carrier/Ravager if it would exceed the HS/FA limit for that battle, to prevent ravager flooding.
Lowered drones to S3.
Corrected description of Warriors. Clearly says that species cost is per model. Because... well it needed to be, as Ana demonstrated.
Increased Facehugger WS to 3 (though they still cannot technically attack), and gave it a 6+ armour save, to represent them being able to take the odd shot without dying (in the films, it normally takes at least 2 to kill them, at least for sure), and jumping around in combat.
Facehug ability redone. Now makes them take an automatic armour save on a specific model (enemy chooses, giving them the option of having a squad member through themself in the path of the hugger, very cinematic ;)).
Carrier S reduced to 4. They aren't really meant for fighting, they're transports/suicide units.
Predalien T increased to 6. These guys (or girls, technically) are meant to be tank-like infantry.
Debilitating Blow does not affect monstrous creatures.
Ravager name fixed. T lowered to 7 so standard marines at least are able to hurt it, although the chances are dramatically low. Puny guardsmen better get to running though.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Krishach on Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:27 am

honestly, ministry, that is only for assault and shooting weapons. If you REALLY wanted to copy existing counter-hit rules, it would be a flat rate for each unit, or standard. That would be better for the current balance anyway, but I would REALLY not go above S4.

Recommend S3 AP5 for a solid number to be less than OP, standard for acid hit.

When you think about it, regardless of size, the mess for 1 wound is about the same, since the attacker is the one making the mess. So make it ONE S3 AP5 per wound to creatures in base-to-base contact. You COULD make it per melee wound only, which would be more balanced, but it would be less fandom-accurate.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby mudokon100 on Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:18 pm

B2B sounds fair, but remember that alien acid can go through ship hulls. So i've comprimised by allowing the amount to factor in, and kept it focused on one unit, otherwise they could easily lose half the squad (which tbh would happen if this were more real).
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Krishach on Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:51 pm

can go through ships hulls if left long enough, you mean. Not as quickly as, say, a Krak missle, and therefor should have a lower AP to account for the lower chance.

Also, ship huil in movie < ground armor. Hulls in actual space are not, nor so they need to be, very thick, unless designed to ward off mass-driver like projectiles. Very unlikely that a flying craft like the ones in the Aliens movie would have hull armor thicker than a Rhino, much less something larger.

Most NASA space only vehicles have a hull that you can puncture with the equivalent of punching it, if what I'm told is correct.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Nonalyth on Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:55 pm

I will say one thing: xenomorphs don't like fire. I would include something like that.

Ok, two things actually. The drones acid spit attack seems too long ranged, and should probably have the same AP as the acid blood ability.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby mudokon100 on Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:43 pm

I suppose I could give them something along the lines as "vulnerable to blasts/templates", but it would make them far too easy to kill. That said, it also is supposed to nullify their acid "explosion" thing, but seen as it's only used in CC it'd be hard to intergrate.
As for the acid thing, I justify that being lower by it being less concentrated. Praetorians spit a spray, while drones spit small glob, but neither is equivalent to the amount released when a whole xeno explodes (warriors are notorious for doing this when they die, but others tend to do it as well), and they cover their opponents in it using their dying breaths.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Krishach on Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:49 am

The xenomorphs weren't particularly resistant to anything, and loved to get dismembered or blended by bullets or melee, but there was the acid. Fire = no acid.

I'd say normal damage for all, reduce the toughness and have template=no acid (redundant to a point, since otherwise your blasting your own shit anyway) but it is something.
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Re: New Race/Unit Discussion

Postby Zombiedragon201 on Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:39 am

Well, a little better, I think the point costs are still a little too high on some of them though, Like the predalien. A 2W model should be about at least 40-50 points, at lower stats.
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