A lot of Suggestions

Here be complaints and suggestions

Moderator: Moderators

A lot of Suggestions

Postby ND999 on Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:12 pm

Greetings revered Tyranid Mod team members & fellow Xenos fans. Me & a couple of friends of mine had tried out the mod, it's basically great, until it comes to balance. We tried everything & the only thing that could beat the Tyranids at a high level (Hard, Harder & Insane, Normal & Easy is debatable) is if you are a veteran Guardsmen player & get a Baneblade (therefore you'd still require a map with an easy access to a Relic), if you outnumber the Tyranids (by the number of players I mean, perhaps 2 players vs 1 Tyranid), if you rush the Tyranids at the very beginning (preferably with Eldar Banshee & Reapers) or if you are playing as Tyranids as well. Therefore, we (by ''we'' I mean my friends & I) had made this list of suggestions, hopefully the mod will become far more balanced & people will have even more fun with it (WARNING: This list of suggestions is very long, read at your own risk):

UNITS:
Will of the Hive : The unit itself isn't overpowered, on the contrary it is underpowered. It doesn't construct & repair as fast as builders of other armies, it slowly starts to loose health when outside of Synapse, is limited to only 3 & it's pretty weak on it's own. The only good thing about it is that it can teleport (& even that is limited). Changes I propose is to simply make them faster at construction & repair, increase their limit to 4 or even 5 & fix this bug when it comes to Tyranids & teleporting (let's just say, when I select the Teleport ability, it says I can teleport __________ this much, but I can actually teleport only ____ this much). That's about it for the builder, proceeding to actual units.
Gaunts; Not much to say actually, they are well balanced & well made. Nice job.
Rippers: Well I don't see why give them the ability to Deepstrike when they can only do that near other Reclamation Pools, it would probably be smarter to make Rippers with their Pools like Eldar are with their Webway Gates or Guardsmen with most of their structures.
Genestealers: They are mostly nicely made, except for this fact that they take up 3 Squad Slots, while we all agree that they should take just 2.
Broodlord: Pretty decent on most parts, but we do have some ideas; instead of adding Genestealers to him, he should be added to Genestealers (as an attachable character). Also, his Broodlord Stealth research should not affect just him, but Genestealers as well.
Lictors: I like these guys, they are awesome. Moving on...
Warriors: Usually, these fellows win the game with their pure firepower, especially when there are 3 broods supported by a Hive Tyrant & perhaps a Trygon. Limit them to 1-2 broods instead of 3 & make them take 3 Squad slots, they are supposed to be the closest thing Tyranids have to Terminators, am I correct?
Raveners: Well they have the same teleportation (or ''burrowing'') issue the Will of the Hive has. Also, why do they have the option to add guns? They shouldn't be able to do that you know? Replace their guns with short-ranged- spitting attacks would be a better idea. Also, they should definitely take 3 Squad slots instead of just 1. Optional Propositions; unlimited Hard Cap & allow them to be garrisoned inside the Birthing Sacs & then Deepstriked.
Hive Tyrant: Well, this guy is a pure monster that's what he is. He held back an entire tide of Necrons all on his own, I'm not joking with this one. Well perhaps give him the ability to make it rain Mycetic Spores (a form of Orbital Bombardment) & he should take 2-3 Support Cap (in the same manner a Guardsmen Command Squad takes 2 Squad caps). Make him less powerful, make him more expensive or a tad bit of both would really balance him out.
Spore Mines: Well what really bothers my friends & I is how long does it take for them to be built, even though they are dirt cheap & aren't used that often. On a side note, the Capillary Tower should only take 10 Spore Mines/WotH at a time. Trust me on this one.
Biovores & Zoanthropes: Well these units alone are splendid, but overall they are quite silly. I mean, seriously, they take only 1 Support cap each & they move in squads of up to 3. Support Cap 2 & they should move solo, like all other Support units should be (with the exception of Tau Gun Drones & Necron Attack Scarabs). Although they should also have unlimited Hard Cap (or if you want to make them limited, give them Hard Cap 3).
Carnifex: Well shockingly, they are quite useful here, no complains, just a suggestion; give them a new Research, ''Mycetic Spore'' which allows up to 2-3 Carnifexes to be garrisoned inside a Spawning Chamber which allows them to Deepstrike. I'm guessing the research would cost about 300 Requisition.
Hellfex/Screamer-Killer/Uberfex: Well these units might have bin used int he previous editions, but not anymore, now there are even better choices to choose from: Hive Guards, Tyrant Guards, Tyrrannofexes & Tervigons. A Tyrranofex would form a formidable long-ranged support to your troops. A Hive Guards/Tyrant Guards are great at hitting the enemy directly, one charges, the other from afar (I'd prefer if you would take the Tyrant Guards, but you said in your FAQ that you wouldn't, but you can still add Hive Guards instead). Tervigons would prove very useful, providing Synapse, & either act as a Transport for Gaunts (transport capacity of 1 Brood) or be able to spawn Termagants in the same manner a Tau Drone Harbinger does Gun Drones. Well if you stay with the old ideas or add these new ones, it doesn't matter, these are just suggestions.
Trygon: Well here's an idea, make it take 5 Support Cap, but allow it to Deepstrike. Also, same teleporting problem as WotH & Raveners. You don't necessarily need to do this, I mean this guy is as scary as it is. Although it would be very fun.

GENERAL: (the statements below are just suggestions, heeding them or not is optional & up to your decision)
-Dawn of War 2 packs a lot of awesome stuff, like Tyranid sounds, ''quotes'', effects as well as some ideas from which you might be able to draw from. Just a suggestion.
-Rename Requisition to Biomass & give it the Icon you use for the Tyranids mod (like the one in the upper left corner of this Forum).
-Add bloodier Sync-Kills, it would really bring the battlefield to life.

Please remember that all I said above is nothing more then me trying to offer help in making this mod better & more fun. I am no more then a mere fan, enjoy the read & I really hope you get the time to listen to my proposals. I'll be eagerly waiting for your replies.
There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal!
There is no strength in flesh, only weakness!
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay!
There is no certainty in flesh, but death!

Praise the Omnissiah! Glory to the Machine!
User avatar
ND999
Ripper
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:43 pm
Location: Belgrade / Serbia / Europe

Re: A lot of Suggestions

Postby Zaha on Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:30 am

Nice to see you made it across. :P
Just to check, did you read this through first? It's our current list of balance changes made for the next release.

Assuming you have, let's see what I can knock out for you because that was a pretty cool post (although I'm sure Krishach or one of the others will weigh in too):

Will of the Hive
We're getting rid of builder units entirely. That's basically why we've been taking so long - it's a hard thing to do, especially when our main coder has had like, five natural disasters to survive as well (and a baby).

Rippers
That's not a bad call actually.

Genestealers
Contentious, we've had a lot of complaints that they're OP, so we'll see.

Broodlord
He actually used to work that way. His movement is lower than general Genestealer movement (it's a balance thing - if he moves at the normal Genestealer speed he winds out wiping out too many enemy units too quickly), so doing it that way made most people find him annoying to attach to squads. So they didn't do it. :P

Warriors
Warriors in the table-top game are actually standard troop choices for Nids rather than being Elites (which is what Terminators are). So not quite that powerful, but they can hold their own against standard space marines.

Raveners
Raveners can have guns. It's something they've been able to do for at least the last three editions of 40k. They've always had access to Deathspitters, Devourers and Spinefists as far as I can recall.

Hive Tyrant
Yeah, we've made a few tweaks on him in the balance changes I linked to above. He was actually more powerful than the Trygon in certain instances, so you know.

We also do want to stick a few general powers around on the HT and a few other units, but that won't be in the next release. Probably the one after.

Biovores and Zoanthropes
There's a reason we made them 3 in a unit - because it means that they last a bit longer, but the enemy can still decrease their damage output. So rather than being continuously firing at full power until it dies (which would wind up being pretty nasty, and yes, would necessitate the 2 support cost), it means that you get more use out of them than you would otherwise (because they live longer), but they're not going to be firing at full strength that whole time. Hence the lower support cost.

I'm not sure if I explained that well enough - did that make sense? It's a balance trick so you can use them longer without them being too brutal.

Carnifex
A lot of that mobility stuff we're going to be looking at later. If you check the FAQ up the top and click the "How are you including Tyranid evolution and mutation?" question, that will explain a lot of the weird and wonderful stuff we'll be looking at after our next release, and very probably that will be a part of that.

Hellfex/Screamer-Killer/Uberfex
They don't exist explicitly in the current edition, but you can still make all these types of Carnifex legitimately. We figured it's easier to create four kinds of Carnifex so people can quickly create the right one they need rather than one with a bazillion options that they have to go through once it's spawned. Makes thing easier and faster for the player, which makes playing a lot smoother. It also means we can cost them differently because they're going to balance differently.

As for the other units, I'll explain why we haven't included one of them: Tyrant Guard. They're actually not that useful unless they're costed dirt cheap (at which point they're too useful). We've found there are generally more useful things to spend your resources on than a killable shield wall.

The rest... well we haven't actually released anything since the new edition came out. Although, I'd suggest you look at our Gaunt Hive, and then look at a Tervigon, and then look at our Gaunt Hive again and see what ideas pop into your head. :P

General Stuff
There are issues with us backporting things from Dawn of War 2. There are a few cool things we wouldn't mind replicating if we can (Lictor flesh hooks are awesome), but I believe there are copyright issues involved with actually directly taking stuff from Dawn of War 2, which would prevent us from pinching things. Also we like original content. :P

Renaming Req is also an interesting one. That IS how we're using Requisition, but at the same time there's some consistency issues we'd like to stay on the right side of as well. Ultimately, the name doesn't vary what it does (Req for Nids serves the same purpose as Req for Space Marines, regardless of what we call it), so it's easier for us to imply it's biomass (and when we have a tutorial we will make it pretty clear that that's what Tyranids are using it for) and let players have that cross-race consistency so they know exactly what it does the first time they play, than it is to rename it (especially since we're making a reasonably unique/new second resource which people WILL have to learn). After all, Dark Eldar don't Requisition things either - they just make it happen, or else. :P

And everyone loves sync-kills, although ours are pretty long at times.

A little extra...
Just so you know, we actually have a map for spawning any specific unit and battling it against any specific other unit. So we do a lot of testing to see what weird and wonderful interactions crop up with the way we've balanced units. For example, the Trygon is less powerful than the Hive Tyrant, but winds up killing more (and sometimes different) relic units in straight 1v1 battles because of the specific way their strengths play out. So a lot of the balance issues we have crop up are that units are about the right strength, but in the wrong way. It gets very odd at times. :lol:
I am the Border of Kaleidoscopic Logic
User avatar
Zaha
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2078
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:20 am

Re: A lot of Suggestions

Postby Joey625 on Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:37 pm

FINALLY someone who is giving suggestions that knows what they are talking about and isnt being a complete ass about it. Another thing to add if you are interested you should look at becoming a beta tester here you seem to know your stuff
My Dawn of War username is Joey62591 if anyone wants to hit me up for a game
Joey625
Broodlord
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:52 am
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: A lot of Suggestions

Postby ND999 on Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:01 pm

Alright Zehe, thank you for you quick replies, here are some of my replies:

WotH - Seems like an interesting idea, will Constructing Tyranid buildings work somewhat like it does in Command & Conquer?
Genestealers - I'm not that sure, they get shot down very quickly by a proper gunline, but they are quite devastating in melee I must admit.
Lictors - Well Here's an idea (totally optional if you choose to do it or not), Lictors should be able to Uncapture enemy points, in the same manner Guardsmen Sentinels & Necron Wraiths do, this is really going to annoy the enemy, especially with the fact that Lictors gain Stealth by default.
Warriors -
Warriors in the table-top game are actually standard troop choices for Nids rather than being Elites (which is what Terminators are)
Tell that to the Grey Knights. Although you do make a good point.
Raveners - Well apparently, the only shooting attack left for them is a form of spitting attack. Their only weapon choices now are Scything Talons & Rending Claws.
Biovores and Zoanthropes - I still think they should take up more Support Cap (I mean, Gun Drones take 2 for crying out loud)
Hellfex/Screamer-Killer/Uberfex Oh well, if your not gonna add new units, then you might want to increase the Hellifex/Screamer-Killer Squad Cap from 1 to 2. It kinda makes sense once you think about it. Uberfex is fine as far as I can see.

Also, what is this Gaunt Hive you are talking about? Are you talking about the Hive Node? (The Building that produces Gaunts) Perhaps if you would show me I could possibly think of a thing or two.

(P.S. What do you have planned for the Gargoyles?)

Oh & Joey, I'm not so sure, I'll think about it, meanwhile, can you explain to me HOW to become a Beta Tester? Just in case I become interested & not so busy.
There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal!
There is no strength in flesh, only weakness!
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay!
There is no certainty in flesh, but death!

Praise the Omnissiah! Glory to the Machine!
User avatar
ND999
Ripper
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:43 pm
Location: Belgrade / Serbia / Europe

Re: A lot of Suggestions

Postby Krishach on Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:57 pm

the suggestions were well thought out.

As for Beta Testing:
short answer, you PM me, a lead, or another Mod.

Long answer:
http://tyranids.gameapollo.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=266

In my opinion, being unsure about testing due to time constraints puts you head and shoulders ABOVE. Too many people sign up, and when its time to get work done, they disappear. Thinking before acting seems to be a rare commodity, and a good one.

For those who did recently sign up who are reading this, if you just confirmed you WILL participate, including the intro, and you are granted access to intro, then never EVER post, you are guaranteed not to be given a new beta update by me. It's called dropping the ball.

If you would like to give additional info that we can process along side beta, without committing, the form exists as a sticky on the Balance page. If you feel like making this official, as well as a topic, here is the link. Hope to hear from you. You can email any forms to Krishach.tyranids@gmail.com
ImageImageImage
User avatar
Krishach
Mod Team
Mod Team
 
Posts: 931
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:30 pm

Re: A lot of Suggestions

Postby Zaha on Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:15 am

I'ma start dual-monitoring for this one (so I can read your post and my answer at the same time :P).

WotH/New Build System
Yeah sorta, although taking up less of the screen. Basically using something similar to the Dark Eldar soul ability bar to do what the C&C sidepanel does.

Lictor
That's also a very solid idea, and very in line with what Lictors are meant to do.

Raveners
If you pop open the current codex, the basic Ravener has two sets of scything talons. They can trade in one of those scything talon sets for rending claws. On top of that, they can also have spinefists, devourers or deathspitters inbuilt into their chests. So rather than taking up an arm slot, those weapons fire out of holes in their torso. The model actually has different front-side torso pieces (something you can check out here if you look very closely) depending on whether your Raveners have those weapons or not.

And here's where I can showoff something cool we have on the forum - check our model out. We have that on the model.

So hopefully that clears up that confusion a bit. They do actually have those weapons in the table-top game, they're just not arm-slot weapons anymore.

Biovores/Zoanthropes
That's something that may change with further testing, I honestly don't know. The new balance tweaks may change that, they may not.

Hellfex/Screamer-Killer/Uberfex
Also something that may change with further testing. These are things which tend to be fluid and easy to change.

Other Stuff
And yeah, it is the Hive Node. Most of the building names need overhauling for simplicity. Fancy-sounding names are all well and good, but it's not Tyranids who name stuff - it's the Imperium, so expect those to be renamed in the next release. But for a visual reference here it is - the one in the top/centre left. If it ditched the magma vent and grew a head, what would that be? :P

As for Gargoyles, they're not going to come out until we start doing the divergent tech-trees. Mostly they're likely to be tier 1 flyer-scouts unless you specifically go for a winged/mobility path, in which case they'll probably be a full termagaunt substitute. Flyers have the advantage of being able to do a lot of hit and run stuff without dying so quickly, so we have to keep that in mind when including them.
I am the Border of Kaleidoscopic Logic
User avatar
Zaha
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2078
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:20 am

Re: A lot of Suggestions

Postby ND999 on Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:09 pm

Krishach - Well I got High School, so I'll be quite busy in the future it seems, I'll need to think about it & I'll be back to you when/if I have time. Also, do I have to have Soulstorm or can i have Dark Crusade instead? Because my copy of Soulstorm broke down for some reason, but my Dark Crusade still works perfectly.

Zahe - Well thank you for discussing this stuff with me. Also, by looking at the Hive Node & considering what it does, I think it somewhat resembles a Tervigon. Think about it, the Building is as large as a Carnifex & it spawns Gaunts. This is just an idea though...
There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal!
There is no strength in flesh, only weakness!
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay!
There is no certainty in flesh, but death!

Praise the Omnissiah! Glory to the Machine!
User avatar
ND999
Ripper
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:43 pm
Location: Belgrade / Serbia / Europe

Re: A lot of Suggestions

Postby Krishach on Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:17 pm

it would have to be Soul Storm
ImageImageImage
User avatar
Krishach
Mod Team
Mod Team
 
Posts: 931
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:30 pm

Re: A lot of Suggestions

Postby Zaha on Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:57 am

Zahe - Well thank you for discussing this stuff with me. Also, by looking at the Hive Node & considering what it does, I think it somewhat resembles a Tervigon. Think about it, the Building is as large as a Carnifex & it spawns Gaunts. This is just an idea though...
That was my thought as well.
In fact, when I first picked up the current codex, I took one look at the Tervigon art and went "wait, isn't that our...?". :P
I am the Border of Kaleidoscopic Logic
User avatar
Zaha
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2078
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:20 am

Re: A lot of Suggestions

Postby ND999 on Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:19 pm

Krishach - Well sorry then, it seems I will not be able to apply until I get a far superior PC then the one I am using at the moment & be able to properly install Soulstorm & then the Nids mod. I'll notify you when that happens.

Zaha - This seems very interesting. Wait, are you thinking of making the Hive Node upgradable to a unit that moves around & spawns Gaunts? Like some kind of miniature Monolith except Tyranid? Because that would be awesome, perhaps kind of weird, but still, pretty good. Also, forgot add one more suggestion for the Broodlord, if not make him an attachable leader, then he should probably take 2 Squad Cap, think of him as a Guardsmen Command Squad or Dark Eldar Archon who start of as lone Heroes but end up being followed around by a whole squad later on.
There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal!
There is no strength in flesh, only weakness!
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay!
There is no certainty in flesh, but death!

Praise the Omnissiah! Glory to the Machine!
User avatar
ND999
Ripper
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:43 pm
Location: Belgrade / Serbia / Europe

Next

Return to Balance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron